Randy: [Did] they remain Witnesses? This thread confirms...[that] few Ex-JWs become LDS members. And likewise few LDS members become Witnesses. ... I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "dropped like hot potatoes," but it sounds like other LDS members were wishing to blame your family for this change?
Nope. They dropped the whole family. You’re also correct that Jehovah’s Witnesses rarely become Mormons, whether they’re active or ex-. And I understand why. Any person leaving any church in bitterness feels that they’ve been manipulated, deceived, and that they’ve wasted a lot of time for nothing. That’s why many become atheists. But at the same time it’s foolish to put the Mormons in the same category as the WTBTS. There’s no ritual shunning, Latter-day Saints can visit any church they want or read any religious materials they wish. They can ask any question they wish in the various classes, they’re not forced into doing missionary work, they’re actually encouraged to seek the highest education they can, and our scholars are known also for the work they do outside of the church and are recognized for the work they do in ancient scripture, apocryphal works, archeology, geology, anthropology and many other areas. The Latter-day Saints are completely different, but there’s no convincing some people.
Randy: Witnesses are fond of quoting Ezekiel 18:4 to show the soul is not immortal and can die and Ecclesiastes 9:5 that the dead are unconscious. Annihilation at death is one thing the Witnesses have been consistent about, since their start as International Bible Students. It seems to have stemmed from a general dislike of the hell-fire doctrine by Charles Russell (founder of the Bible Students). In reality it is obvious that death ends animated life.
Yes, the soul that sinneth shall die, according to Ezekiel. But what is death? It’s a separation. Spiritual death is a separation of man and God. Physical death is the separation of the body and spirit. As for Ecclesiastes, it’s clearly a philosophic book and not an eschatological book. If written by Solomon, we have to remember that he was seduced by women of other cultures, and that he allowed them to erect altars to their gods. His life was largely a disappointment. The author of Ecclesiastes was a bitter man who saw human knowledge and progress as insignificant. He also said that “And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, said the preacher, the whole is vanity.” (12:7) In other words, man comes to the earth, lives his life, then returns to God, and what does he accomplish? Jeremiah was told that he was known by the Lord before he came to the earth (Jer. 1:5). And the apostles asked Jesus, “Master, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?” (John 9:2) How could that man sin before his birth if he did not exist? Jesus made no attempt to correct them. Peter also tells us that Jesus, while he was gone from his body, “preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 4:6) How could he preach to the dead if they were not aware? As we’ve discussed on this board, if people are not eternal, those who are resurrected would be merely exact duplicates of the original person. They would not be the original. Once you blink out of existence, God can only bring you back by creating a duplicate being with all of your thoughts and memories. That person wouldn’t know any different, because he would have all your thoughts and memories, but the you that now exists would be gone forever.
You’re also correct that death ends animated life. If you’ve ever lost a family member or friend, or if you’ve ever had an animal as a pet, once dead, the body looks different. It’s clearly a shell in which the spirit, an eternal being, resides.
Randy: When we see injustice, we want to see it dealt with. ... When a child is born into poverty and dies before the age of 5, it reeks of injustice. How can this be solved?
Injustice? How? The Lord has stated that children who die return to the Lord and will inherit eternal life, without the necessity of going through the pain and suffering of human life. I wish I could have died that young, though if I had, I don’t think I would have appreciated death and a return to God as much. Most righteous people who suffer death recount that it’s like having a tremendous burden lifted from their shoulders. On the other hand, many of those who live selfish, hedonistic lifestyles or reject the existence of God experience fear and for that reason refuse to move on. Many remain in the land of the living, being neither seen nor heard, fearful that if they move on, that they will suffer punishment.
Randy:Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are ordained ministers.
Indeed they do. But from whence do they get their authority? They certainly aren’t ordained. They also don’t have the opportunity of baptizing their friends or children. I was actually ordained, and I have a lineage of my priesthood. I also baptized my father a few years ago shortly before his death, and it was a tremendous thrill and honor to do so. But if Jehovah’s Witnesses are ordained, how does it happen? Hands on head? No, by baptism, and that is completely unscriptural.
Randy:Believing Witnesses would likely say "how dare they..." in regards to the claims of made by the LDS leaders, "see, our leaders are much more humble" they would claim. Pragmatically, though, it works out to be about the same.
They may surmise such, but do the JW Governing Body members see visions, have angelic ministrations? In the early days of the LDS church, after Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered, many of the apostles were spread all over the U.S. and I think one or two may have been in Europe. Many of the apostles who were closest to Nauvoo, the home of the saints, received revelations telling them to return immediately and not to reorganize until a majority of the Twelve was present. Turning to Jerusalem, John writes in Revelation 11 that two prophets will be raised up by the Lord to defend Judah during Armageddon. Both will have the power of the ancient prophets and will keep the Beast and the False Prophet from progressing from the valley into the city. But after 42 months, the enemy will break through and kill them. How can they be prophets if they aren’t called and ordained? How can the Jews build their temple and sanctify it, and offer sacrifices, if the Jewish Cohens (priests) aren’t taught how to do it?
Barry: Have any artifacts been found mentioned in the Book of Mormon that are found in the Americas? Things like arrow heads, coins or art works? Have any of the numerous cities been found also mentioned in the Book of Mormon? The flora and fauna in the Book of Mormon is also false isn't it?
Oh, yes. The Book of Mormon talks about a son of King Zedekiah who was led to the Americas and thus escaped the destruction of Jerusalem. His name was Mulek, and he and those he came with settled in the land; however, because Mulek and his family did not have a copy of the Hebrew scriptures with them, they lost their identities, their language, and they assimilated into other peoples. When the Nephites discovered them years later, they couldn’t even communicate with them, but because the Nephites had a copy of the scriptures on brass plates, they were able to tell the Mulekites about their origins.
Critics say that Joseph Smith erred in adding that part to the Book of Mormon because all of Zedekiah’s sons were killed in front of the king, and then he was blinded, so this was the last thing he saw before losing his sight. In recent years, however, archeologists have uncovered evidence that Zedekiah did have a son named MLK. Since the vowels were removed, we have only the consonants, but they have recovered his royal seal. If Joseph Smith invented the story, how could he have known all about the Arabian deserts, how could he have provided perfect directions in the Old World without a single error, and why does the Book of Mormon text contain chiasms and other Hebraisms? Even when Isaiah is quoted in the Book of Mormon, it’s almost entirely what scholars have termed “First Isaiah” (on the theory that there were at least four writers who contributed to the book). The other two references were from “Second Isaiah.” This would indicate that these Isaiah passages were all originals and written by Isaiah.
There are many other evidences that the Book of Mormon is a genuine history. Going back to Mulek, he most likely came to the New World with some Phoenicians. Three reasons. First, Zedekiah had trading treaties with the Phoenicians. Two, the Phoenicians were outstanding sailors and were really the only ones with the technology to make the trip. Finally, the primary river in the Book of Mormon lands is called “Sidon.” Why would Jews name a river after a Phoenician city? Yet the Book of Mormon is silent on why the river was called Sidon.
This seal dates to the time of the reign of king Zedekiah. The
actual stamp or ‘seal’ has the surface size of smaller coin
though its thickness is greater. The stone stamp or seal is
at the right first column and the second column contains a
clay impression left by the stamp and a detailed artist’s
reproduction of the actual Hebrew characters. The one half
of the seal ‘spells’ out in Hebrew the name which would be
pronounced as (lemalkiyahu) or “to Malkiyahu” meaning
‘belonging to Malkiyahu’. And the other half of the seal
registry reads “ben hamelek” which translates
‘ben - son of’ ‘ha - the’ and ‘melek - king’.
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